Trying to connect my 2 voice over endeavors, I’m going to post summaries of The VO Meter podcast that I co-host with Sean Daeley. Here is the first…
The VO Meter, Measuring Your Voice Over Progress.
Okay, everybody, welcome to the inaugural edition of the VO Meter podcast, Measuring Your Voice Over Career Progress. I’m your host, Paul Stefano, and joining me is co-host, Sean Daeley.
Hey, everybody, how are you doing? Oh, wait, that’s right, they can’t respond back.
So, this is the inaugural version. Inaugural, inaugural, inaugural.
I usually say inaugural personally, but like…
I like to go with inaugural.
Inaugural.
Inaugural.
Maybe it’s an East Coast thing.
Maybe. Capital is here on the East Coast, so that’s what I’m going with. So, in this inaugural edition of the podcast, I should explain a little bit about the motivation.
So, when I started out, I received a lot of help from the great industry pros all around the country and even the world. And though that period of time was only about one year ago, I feel like I have progressed greatly, and I wanted to do something to give back, to give the community that has helped me so much in getting started. So, I thought, why not start a podcast and get out the information about the pitfalls and things you want to try to avoid when you’re first getting started as a, quote-unquote, newbie.
I hate that word, and I promise, it’s the last time I’ll use it. But it does get the point across pretty nicely. How do you feel about that word?
Well, I mean, yeah, it’s got all sorts of preconceptions coming with it. It’s, I mean, like, you hear amateur or novice, and you have to start somewhere. I mean, people have, like, we…
Voice Over is really interesting in that we’re all really varied in where we’re coming from. Like, literally every occupation, depending on if you’re doing part-time or full-time, people come from all around. So, you might be a doctor and doing voice over part-time, or a teacher is a really popular job to be moving from.
But it’s, depending on what your prior experience is, they’re, for example, say, an audio engineer or even a talent agent, you might have a lot more applicable knowledge when you come into this field. So, you’re absolutely right. In newbie, even though it does have all of this negative preconceptions with it, it’s not always an accurate descriptor of where you’re really at when you get started.
So, this brings up a good point. When do you feel comfortable sort of giving advice to those that may be just starting out and don’t have really any experience in a related field?
Oh, you’re asking me now. So, okay, well, that’s the thing is that… And I’ll say right now, Paul and I are…
We’re kind of in the trenches, voice actors. We don’t have as much experience as people who have been doing it for decades. I’ve been doing it for about three years now.
Paul’s been doing it for a little over one. But everyone goes through this sort of initial… I almost want to call it a hazing phase.
Yeah, you can describe it.
Absolutely. Because everyone comes in because they’re passionate about VO. Hopefully, you’re not just like, I just want to make some quick bucks doing something easy, because it’s not.
And it’s not quick, and it’s not easy at all. I actually had a great conversation with this one girl who is a talented actress, and she’s like, I’d really like to start doing voice work. Could you give me some advice?
And I did. I was like, well, I’ve been doing this for about three years, and I’m definitely more successful now than any time previous. And she’s like, oh, that’s really quick.
And I loved that she said that, because most people are like, three years? That’s so long. And she had a very realistic expectation about how long it would take to get a foothold and start making a return on your investment.
And that’s another thing, is it’s almost quarterly, if not more often. I see it like, if you spend enough time on Facebook in the different voiceover groups, you’ll see just like, all right, I put together a demo, can I get some feedback on it? And then it’ll just get torn apart because people are recording it on their phone or on a USB mic, and they don’t have a treated space, and they don’t have a realistic idea of what it takes.
And I’ll admit, it’s discouraging to hear like, oh, you’re not ready, you need training, you need to invest in yourself, especially if you’re coming from a place of no money. But that is the reality of it. But the truth is there are ways to make incremental progress.
So you might have to, well, obviously you have to learn to budget, and there are plenty of affordable… there’s affordable recording solutions. You might even be able to work out an agreement with a coach where you’re doing a payment plan, as opposed to everything up front.
There are ways around these issues. If you want to do this, you will find a way instead of finding excuses.
Yeah, that’s a great point. And most importantly, there’s a right way to do it and a wrong way to do it, or at least righter ways to do it.
Absolutely.
I know that’s not important, but it sounds funny. And that’s why we’re here, basically, to try and help people avoid those huge pitfalls that are there in front of every new person so they can avoid those mistakes.
Absolutely, because you see the same questions being asked over and over and over again. And everyone is going to have the same questions. But the problem is, what will really separate you from the start is if you realize that it’s been asked and the answer is out there if you look for it.
Yeah, I think that’s a lot of times where the frustration comes from from people who have been in the business for a long time. Absolutely. They’ve seen that question so many times that they just can’t stomach answering it again in the same way.
Absolutely. I mean, I’ve made templates for people who ask these questions, and then I’m like, all right, you’re set for a year, okay? Don’t ask anything else.
I have just given you this boatload of resources that I spent the time finding myself for free. I mean, you’ll find… I mean, everyone I talk to, because now I’m back with my family and my friends, and for them, I’m their window into this crazy VO world, and they’re like…
I mean, I went to school with a lot of actors and stuff like that, and they’re like, wow, this community is so much more supportive and less cutthroat than the stage or theater… I mean, the stage or on-camera acting communities that I’ve… the sort of stereotypes that we think of when we think like the entertainment industry.
And they are. I mean, VO people are incredibly generous to a fault. And the thing is, is we run out of patience with people who aren’t willing to do the work, because most of us have put a lot of work into this, a lot of time, a lot of effort, a lot of money, and we feel a little shortchanged by someone who’s trying to shortcut.
And that’s definitely part of it, but I don’t necessarily think everyone is trying to shortcut. Certainly there are people that do that. But it’s just…
It’s heartbreaking, really, is the word I would use when you see somebody put out a demo that you know they recorded in their bedroom with an untreated space, and they just get blasted by everybody who they put it out to.
Absolutely.
And you just think, if only they had asked me first, I would have helped them.
No, no, that’s a great point. And when I say… That’s a big point, too, is it’s usually innocuous.
It’s not like they are… I mean, they’re not trying to hurt anyone. Like, they’re just trying to realize a dream, for the most part.
And you’re right. They will get blown apart. And this is…
Not everyone is willing to kind of give them that compliment sandwich, you know? Yeah. Because, I mean, you’re right, because some people have just lost the patience for it completely, and others are just jaded because they see it over and over and over again.
And it’s like nobody… Like, I don’t know. People will jump on to a Facebook group, and like I said, they’ll put that demo out right after that.
And it was like, Facebook archives everything. If you have a question, or if you have a situation, before you post. That’s the thing, is that nobody looks these things up before they post.
Yeah, internet research is, ironically, is a lost art. It’s easier than ever with the technology we have, but actually doing research is a completely lost art on the youth of today.
Absolutely, and it’s not… I mean, there are more resources available now than ever before. And I’m just, like, I’m flabbergasted that people can’t find them on their own.
So this brings up a good segue. I wanted to talk about some of the pitfalls that you and I have experienced. Although I’m here, you know, preaching, you do your research and ask for help, I’ve definitely done some of the stupid things myself.
Oh, me too.
So you can start or I’ll start, but I definitely have a few I’d like to go over.
Okay, so I think my biggest problem so far has been when you start getting clients and your workload starts to increase, you may not… Like since a lot of this is new, you’re unprepared in certain regards. So like for example, you might have a project that you’ve never done before and you don’t know what rate to give.
Or what’s happened to me is that I’ve underbid myself before I had a true understanding of how much work was involved. I remember they said before they sent me a script, they’re like, alright, this is for an audio textbook. It should be about 30, 40 minutes of audio.
And then so I gave them like an hourly rate for an audio book and I was like, alright, this is great. And then that was before I realized that they wanted multiple actors and sound effects and music and all of these other things. And I’m like, alright, there goes your entire budget.
I lost money on that book and I wasn’t able to complete it in a timely manner because I had no experience doing a lot of that stuff. And we had that sort of back and forth where I’m like, alright, how’s this? Like, oh, we want more differentiation between the characters and we don’t just want you to do a different voice, we want another actor.
Oh boy.
So that was a big learning experience. And it’s funny, there’s some things you’ll handle better than others, but the truth is, if you make these mistakes, it’s not life or death. You might have lost a client, but you’ve learned a whole new skill set and you just have to keep going and charge accordingly, outsource when possible, charge for that, and just ask all of these things ahead of time.
So recently, I do this every couple of months, so there’s a wonderful book called Making Money in Your.
He lives right around the corner from the house my dad grew up in. I recently found out.
Oh, wow. And I actually had a chance to talk to him at a recent networking event. Very nice guy.
He made fun of my beer, because I like Belgians, and I was drinking a Blue Moon.
Wait, are you talking about beer still?
Yes. I’ve never… So, um, I studied abroad or two, but anyways…
Very nice.
Anyways, yes, we’re talking like Belgian white beers and stuff like that. So, I love Blue Moon, and it’s an American beer, but he’s like, Oh, yes, the poor man’s Holgerden, because he’s from the Netherlands, so he would, of course, prefer the European beers.
That is a good one, by the way. I’m a big fan of that one.
I love Holgerden. It’s so refreshing. But anyways, so I was like, Oh, and this is being embarrassed by one of your VO idols, by the way.
I’ve been following him for four years, and then the first thing he says to me is like, I hate your beer. By the way, can we still do an interview later, Paul? I’m sorry.
But I just joked back. I was like, well, Holgerden doesn’t come in cans. And he’s fine.
He’s just breaking the ice. But anyways, I’m rereading this book, and he’s all about providing an excellent service and being prepared by asking those questions ahead of time. And I’m just like, oh, God, I’ve made this mistake and that mistake, and la, but I mean, it’s still…
I feel like there are some mistakes you have to make. You can only experience it only goes so far.
Yeah, so those are all good ones.
Talk about some of your challenges, Paul.
So one that we talked about already was the self-produced demo, and I was totally guilty of this. I started, I think, looking for voiceover work on a Monday, when I finally decided to put myself out there. So I decided I’m going to do it all at once.
I created a website, I created some self-produced demos, and I think that Tuesday night, a full 24 hours later, I decided to put myself out to the world. Published my website, sent my self-produced demos to a bunch of voiceover communities, and guess what happened? Absolutely destroyed.
The sound is terrible. Have you ever been in front of a microphone before? Do you have teeth?
Every possible insult and criticism, in no way constructive for the most part. And I thought, wow, what have I gotten myself into? So luckily, I had some guidance and took a step back and followed that guidance to immediately get V2 a coach.
And that’s when I decided that I needed to pull down those demos, which I did, also advice from some other industry pros. And I pulled down those demos, got some coaching and didn’t put out anything at all until I had finished at least the introductory program with the fine folks at Edge Studio. So once they produced my demo and gave me their Edge Studio approved badge, meaning that I had completed at least enough introductory training to produce a halfway decent demo, then I put it out there and started sending it to people.
So that was a big one.
And it’s a tough spoon to swallow, absolutely. I mean, some people are just like, what do you mean I’m not good enough? And it’s…
I mean, I deal with this all the time. Like I recently… One of my main gigs is sort of this English education website where you do these monthly narrations.
And one of our students was like… Now keep in mind, they’ve actually seen me do interviews with the owner of the site, so they know what I really sound like. But when I talk, at least it’s still…
I don’t know. Sometimes I like to get a little sing-songy. I like to excite and spice up the words, add a little secret sauce.
And they’re like, why doesn’t he sound normal when he narrates? I’m like, oh no! I’ve been doing this for three years now, and I’ve just dug myself into this habit hole.
And so yesterday I was working on that. I’m like, all right, I’m forcing myself to relax, as contradictory as that sounds. But it created something that was a lot more like what I’m talking to right now.
Granted, there are times when you will have a script, and they will straight up tell you, all right, make this boring script sing. When you have that kind of permission, you can just go balls to the wall and have fun with it. But the thing is, is that in every area of VO, nobody wants you to sound like you’re reading.
You’re just talking. And we forget how hard that is. I mean, right now, I’m in a closet, staring at a microphone, pretending that I’m talking to Paul and talking to you.
But this is how I sound. This is pretty much how I talk to anyone. So one of the reasons I love podcasts is because you have that assumption of an audience, and it’s that much easier to talk to people.
Well, hopefully there’s an audience. That remains to be seen.
That remains to be seen. Remains to be heard. But absolutely.
That’s the thing. Even from us, take what we have with a grain of salt, because we’re still learning, and we’re only trying to provide advice to help you.
Yeah, indeed. So another pitfall that I came across was microphone choice. More accurately, microphone envy, or the acronym GAS that we like to use, which stands for gear acquisition syndrome.
It never goes away.
It doesn’t, unfortunately, but it’s especially bad when you’re first starting, because you’re looking at all these stores and advice from people that tell you this is the best microphone you need to use, this one’s good for voiceover, this one’s good for podcasts. And I’m here to tell you that, for the most part, it doesn’t matter. I’ve purchased and sold no less than 22 mics in a one-year period.
Oh, my God.
And the one that I’m using now is, I think, the third mic I purchased. Thankfully, I held on to one that works. And it’s always worked.
And it didn’t really make any sense to look for anything else. And this mic, by the way, was less than $200 new. So the key is to find something that sounds good and, more importantly, sounds good in your space.
And sometimes the only way to do that is to test it. So what I like to recommend is look for places that either have a good return policy, like Guitar Center will let you return most of their products locally. Sweetwater has a decent return policy.
Or, if you can, borrow. And that’s a good way to find out as well. So look for places nearby, or friends that are either in the business or maybe are podcasters themselves, or even in the music business.
They may have a mic collection. Try and borrow from them. Get it in your space and see how it sounds before you decide that’s something you want to use forever.
Absolutely. And so kind of going on a different tangent right now. One of the reasons I love Paul is that he is not afraid to try everything and seeing what sticks.
Absolutely. And I mean, that’s something that I struggle with. And like we’ve both been doing our separate paths for like him for about one year, me for three.
And when Paul and I became friends, my own progress skyrocketed because he pushed me to market myself to agencies more. I didn’t do that too much before because I didn’t have a very reliable recording environment. I could record when I absolutely needed to, but I was like, if I can’t do 24-hour turnaround, I didn’t want to shoot myself in the foot because you only get one good impression.
But thanks to encouragement from him and a few other people, they’re like, why aren’t you working more?
This is a great thing to hear, by the way. I wish I knew. Maybe you could tell me.
Absolutely. But that’s why it’s so important to really look at your progress again, or like I said, have that ritual where you have this litmus test of where you want to be at, and you’re like, all right, what mistakes am I making? How can I improve?
Because that’s the thing. It’s like people, going back to that newbie mentality, you have this idea that you either, like you do or you don’t, and once you’re at a certain level, you stop improving. No.
You hear from some of the most successful people in the business. One of my favorite voice actors is this guy who transitioned from anime into American animation named Steve Bloom. One, he didn’t start until he was 40, so don’t let age be a detractor.
Hey, I started when I was 42.
Exactly. And if it’s something you’re passionate about, by all means, give it a try. And then he didn’t have formal acting training when he started, but he certainly does it now.
He works with dialect coaches and acting coaches regularly, and I know plenty of people who do. So there’s no need to plateau ever, really. And there are constant ways to improve.
And everyone I talk to who I’m like, yeah, you’ve made it, they’re like, how do I get better? They don’t sit on their laurels.
Yeah, and the opposite of that is there is a point where, and I know you experience this, where there is a phrase I like to use, paralysis by analysis, where you’re constantly looking at your career and saying, if only I had more training, if only I had a better microphone, if only I had a better space. There’s a point where you have to get off your duff and get out there and market yourself. Now, the caveat being, you have to be ready.
And the way to do that is to get feedback from respected peers, coaches, and industry pros that can tell you, one, if your space is ready and your recording environment is ready. And there’s the engineers out there, like George Widom or Cliff Zellman and Dan Leonard, that can give you that sort of seal of approval that, yes, your recording space is ready. But then you have to have honest feedback from people that you know, but will be honest with you.
So not your mom, for instance.
Oh, you sound great, honey.
Exactly.
That’s a great point. And sometimes if you’ve built up a relationship with these people, it will be free. But if you’re just really new to the business, you might have to pay for that feedback.
And that’s okay. That’s another thing is like, why do I have to pay for somebody’s opinion? I was like, well, it’s a small investment now, which could have a large return later.
And could determine the course of your career. And like we were saying before, we’re such bad judges of our own… Or like we’re our own worst critics.
Because… Or best, depending on… I just made this demo.
But the point is, we are not the best… We are not the best critics of our progress and our talent.
No, both positively and negatively. I personally thought my demo sucked when it was produced. I heard it for the first time on my iPhone.
I was playing it for my family. And my wife looked at me and said, you don’t like it, do you? I can see it in your face.
And I said, no, I don’t. But I persevered. I sent it out to several people, and within two months of it being out, I landed with four regional agents.
So it wasn’t as bad as I thought it was, for sure.
And it’s funny that you mentioned that, because I had had my demos for about two years, which some people recommend, that you might want to update them for various reasons. One, your talent has improved. Two, your spots might not be as relevant or up to date.
You’re advertising Etzel? Probably two for a refresh?
Yeah, absolutely. So I was looking into getting a new one, and then that’s when we became friends, and you started pushing me to market it to talent agencies. First couple of agencies I sent it to were like, all right, you’re on our roster.
We love it. And I’m like, whaa?
Yeah, it was a very similar experience to what I had.
And so, like you said, we’re our own best and worst judges of our own character. But that’s another… Going back to what you were talking about, I love, like I said, you tried it with a whole bunch of gear.
Some people might be scared because you can spend a lot of money. But I mean, you were really smart about it. Like you didn’t…
Like, I don’t feel like you bought any extremely expensive microphones. The fact that you were able to turn them around so quickly, you didn’t take that much of a hit to your wallet, right?
No, sometimes I even made money on transactions. My latest fiasco with the upgrading of my space actually turned a nice profit on that.
Yeah, that’s one… And like I said, that’s not… It’s not just pertaining to your gear, but it’s like your whole approach to your VO career.
I’ve seen you do it with your marketing efforts, reaching out to… This guy will reach out to anyone and everyone who he thinks might be interested in his services, which is what you should do. Because you don’t…
You’re only going to get, if you’re lucky, a 10% return on your output. If you reach out to 100 people, you might hear back from 10, and you might get one job from five, and you might get…
And that’s if you’re talented.
Yeah, and that’s if you’re talented.
Some of the best voices in the business, that’s still their booking rate.
Yeah, 15% to 20%.
That’s a good point, actually. If you’re just starting out and you’re auditioning, auditioning, and not getting any response, I would not necessarily give up. Maybe.
But find out some feedback first.
Absolutely. That’s the thing. At some point, it’s always great to check in and figure out why you’re not booking.
This may be a good time to throw out our contact information. If anybody wants to ask for help, I know I’m willing to help out as long as people are respectful of time and effort.
So for me, I’m on Facebook, just Sean Daeley, S-E-A-N-D-A-E-L-E-Y. And if you want to friend me, just be like, Hey Sean, I heard your podcast, liked what you had to say. I had a few questions if you don’t mind.
And I won’t, like especially if you’re so polite and use my script. So write that down.
Any other information you want to give out?
You can find my website at dailyvo.com. So that’s Daeley as in every day, because nobody spells my name right. And then we can talk about branding and stuff like that another time.
But yeah, so my website’s up at dailyvo.com. It’s also got ways to get a hold of me via email or Skype. And you can hear my demos and hire me if you wish.
There you go. And my website is www.paulstefano.com Since you’re probably only listening to this, I’ll spell it P-A-U-L-S-T-E-F like Fred, A-N like Nancy, o.com. And you can follow me at Paul Stefano on Twitter.
My Twitter is linked to everything, so that’s probably the easiest way to find me. So that’s it everybody for the inaugural. Sean, you want to say it your way?
For the inaugural?
Version of The VO Meter podcast. And thanks for joining us. We hope to do this as often as possible.
Leave us a comment if you have any that you want to talk about, either positive or negative, and listen up for the next one.
And so, yeah, we really invite you guys to listen in, and if you have questions, if you want to talk about gear, if you want to talk about self-marketing efforts, anything like that, we are a very fledgling podcast, and we would love your feedback, and we’re looking for ideas for more content. So go ahead and write us at the contact information that we gave you before, and we would be happy to answer your questions and maybe even have you on if that’s a thing that we can figure out the technical requirements for. So thanks a lot for listening to us, everybody.
This was a lot of fun, and I hope to be doing a lot more soon.
Thanks for listening to The VO Meter. Measuring Your VO Progress. To follow along, visit hgtp://vometer.podbean.com/feed.
We’ll see you next time on The VO Meter.